Versys 1000 Forum

Versys 1000 => Suspension and Chassis Set-up => Topic started by: kris on February 12, 2018, 12:31:36 PM

Title: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: kris on February 12, 2018, 12:31:36 PM
I got the front springs from Hyperpro and am going to install them soon.  Anyone has information how much air gap is specified?  Since the springs are progressive, so I assume the air gap needs to be bigger since the progressive part takes more space.  I am not sure how the air/oil ratio works in front forks.  The air works as springs too, but so should the oil. 
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: Crosshairs on February 12, 2018, 03:19:18 PM
air gap is a byproduct of oil height...set the oil height to the proper spec, and the height to the top is  what your air gap is ...if you want more air gap, you use less oil.

honestly though, I would just go with what oil height  Hyper Pro specifies... they know a bit about their springs
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: kris on February 13, 2018, 02:52:36 AM
*Originally Posted by Crosshairs [+]
air gap is a byproduct of oil height...set the oil height to the proper spec, and the height to the top is  what your air gap is ...if you want more air gap, you use less oil.

honestly though, I would just go with what oil height  Hyper Pro specifies... they know a bit about their springs

yes, oil hight is measured by the remaining air gap.  i will need to contact them.  to stock is around 108mm, so I suppose that with H spring, the gap would be around 120mm.
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: Paul_Smith on February 13, 2018, 04:07:37 PM
*Originally Posted by kris [+]
yes, oil hight is measured by the remaining air gap.  i will need to contact them.  to stock is around 108mm, so I suppose that with H spring, the gap would be around 120mm.
Why?

What makes you think the gap would change? And what makes you think it would change by 12mm?
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: kris on February 13, 2018, 04:13:47 PM
*Originally Posted by Paul_Smith [+]
Why?

What makes you think the gap would change? And what makes you think it would change by 12mm?

I vaguely remember reading somewhere that it would be 120mm, but I am not sure. The reason for gap change is that the progressive part of the spring takes up more space, so more oil is pushed up; hence, hyperpro instructions take this under consideration.
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: Paul_Smith on February 13, 2018, 08:54:52 PM
*Originally Posted by kris [+]
I vaguely remember reading somewhere that it would be 120mm, but I am not sure. The reason for gap change is that the progressive part of the spring takes up more space, so more oil is pushed up; hence, hyperpro instructions take this under consideration.
You have me confused now. The hyperpro instructions tell you to account for the extra volume of the progressive part of the spring, but don't tell you by how much? That doesn't seem very professional of them. You did know that the air gap is set and adjusted before the springs are mounted, not after? 
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: kris on February 14, 2018, 01:51:57 AM
*Originally Posted by Paul_Smith [+]
You have me confused now. The hyperpro instructions tell you to account for the extra volume of the progressive part of the spring, but don't tell you by how much? That doesn't seem very professional of them. You did know that the air gap is set and adjusted before the springs are mounted, not after?

Yes, I know.  I have the information from other people installing Hyperpro, but I was wondering if someone knows specifically for V1.  Also, this air gap is not a clear science for me; perhaps there is some room for more or less oil in tuning the suspension.  The springs are waiting for me in another country, and am not sure if the manual is included.  Anyway, if the instructions are not there, I will contact them, even though these guys are not so easy to communicate with.  For instance, when I asked them before about the viscosity of the oil they use, other than the weight, they wrote me that this is an information they do not share :(
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: 100milesaway on February 14, 2018, 04:47:05 AM
*Originally Posted by kris [+]
Yes, I know.  I have the information from other people installing Hyperpro, but I was wondering if someone knows specifically for V1.  Also, this air gap is not a clear science for me; perhaps there is some room for more or less oil in tuning the suspension.  The springs are waiting for me in another country, and am not sure if the manual is included.  Anyway, if the instructions are not there, I will contact them, even though these guys are not so easy to communicate with.  For instance, when I asked them before about the viscosity of the oil they use, other than the weight, they wrote me that this is an information they do not share :(
Are you dealing with Hyperpro themselves, or an agent  :question:. All sounds a bit mickey mouse to me :006:
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: kris on February 14, 2018, 05:44:54 AM
I have emailed Hyperpro a few times, to some of their websites.  Anyway, never mind.  I will figure it out.
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: kris on February 14, 2018, 08:08:20 AM
I received an email from Hyperpro headquarters, they say '110mm' gap, which is not much more than stock.  It is a bit surprising as, from another forum I saw, the air gap with H springs was suggested much larger than OEM.
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: Topbox on February 14, 2018, 09:58:13 AM
I'm sure you could work it out if you wanted to if you know the number of extra coils, spring wire diameter and coil diameter and convert that volume to oil height difference within your forks.

However, you've got quite a bit of latitude in oil height before it actually affects the handling. In any event with progressive springs the spring will probably go super strong way before the air gap has any impact. So I wouldn't worry too much

TB
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: Pickaxe on February 14, 2018, 12:42:21 PM
I can see this developing into a mega thread :002:
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: kris on February 14, 2018, 01:10:04 PM
*Originally Posted by Topbox [+]
I'm sure you could work it out if you wanted to if you know the number of extra coils, spring wire diameter and coil diameter and convert that volume to oil height difference within your forks.

However, you've got quite a bit of latitude in oil height before it actually affects the handling. In any event with progressive springs the spring will probably go super strong way before the air gap has any impact. So I wouldn't worry too much

TB

Topbox, thanks. Yes, you probably are right.
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: Paul_Smith on February 14, 2018, 03:07:55 PM
*Originally Posted by kris [+]
I received an email from Hyperpro headquarters, they say '110mm' gap, which is not much more than stock.  It is a bit surprising as, from another forum I saw, the air gap with H springs was suggested much larger than OEM.
You are doing it again. You are questioning the advice that the expert gave directly to you because of something someone somewhere might or might not have said. Why do you do that? If Hyperpro tell you that the airgap for their springs is 110mm, who in the world do you think might actually know any better than them? 
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: kris on February 14, 2018, 03:32:39 PM
*Originally Posted by Paul_Smith [+]
You are doing it again. You are questioning the advice that the expert gave directly to you because of something someone somewhere might or might not have said. Why do you do that? If Hyperpro tell you that the airgap for their springs is 110mm, who in the world do you think might actually know any better than them?

it is not a matter of knowing things better.  I was surprised, that's all.

it is you who are doing 'it' again.  I am getting tired of dealing with such autocratic, know-it-all nonsense.   you could benefit from becoming a nicer person.   
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: Topbox on February 14, 2018, 04:32:15 PM
*Originally Posted by kris [+]
it is not a matter of knowing things better.  I was surprised, that's all.

it is you who are doing 'it' again.  I am getting tired of dealing with such autocratic, know-it-all nonsense.   you could benefit from becoming a nicer person.   

Paul might have a few faults but being wrong isn't one of them  :whistle: :whistle:

Kris, thats what I say to the carving knife when I want her to shut up " yes love your probably right"  :2:

TB
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: kris on February 15, 2018, 02:02:17 PM
*Originally Posted by Topbox [+]
Paul might have a few faults but being wrong isn't one of them  :whistle: :whistle:

Kris, thats what I say to the carving knife when I want her to shut up " yes love your probably right"  :2:

TB

Yes, I know and I highly respect his expertise.  but is all the antagonism really necessary?  I try to be respectful to everyone, but it is in my nature to question things as well, but then I get all that negative feedbacks. 

Hyperpro makes great springs, according to most, but this does not mean that they care about the details in regards to every bike.  They even refused to tell me the viscosity of their oil - this is highly unprofessional. 

by the way, since I am working in a psychological field (more or less) I made some observations. I have been contemplated how some of the forum-communities are formed.  it is like a small society or a gang of internet buddies.  among many categories, there are those who tell everyone what to do and what is right; it is common that they themselves do not ask any questions because this would make them feel like they lose authority. then, there are those who know as much, or possibly more but hate to get into argument with other people, so they prefer to be in the background.  then, there are those who like to please the 'leaders'  (lick their bottom) and they would do anything to fit in and feel accepted.  and then there those who like me, present themselves as newbies and among these ones, some accept everything without any filtering, while few of them question things.

Most of us do not know each other personally - this is a fact.  If you met some of the members, you might have loved them or avoided their company at any cost.  Some of us are very young, or others (like me) not so young.  basically, what I am trying to say is that due to the anonymous nature of that interaction, care must be taken even more to respect other fellows, and not doing internet bullying like people do when they feel safe to express their frustration behind their laptops.
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: mikep on February 15, 2018, 02:35:21 PM
Well said Kris.  :028:
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: mikep on February 15, 2018, 02:48:07 PM
Now, back to your regularly scheduled program.

Air gap as I understand it, does not have to be a constant.  I think an optimal gap is chosen to work well without any negative side effects (or affects, I get confused on that one). 

I think... the gap can be incresed to get a less progressive rise in compression and maybe more travel (with the added risk of bottoming out at the extreme) . Less gap for just the opposite. 

There is a way to measure the maximum travel of the fork and use that to calculate or assume what the maximum gap should be. 
Maybe somebody has a more precise explanation.
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: TYKE on February 15, 2018, 02:51:43 PM
*Originally Posted by kris [+]
Yes, I know and I highly respect his expertise.  but is all the antagonism really necessary?  I try to be respectful to everyone, but it is in my nature to question things as well, but then I get all that negative feedbacks. 

Hyperpro makes great springs, according to most, but this does not mean that they care about the details in regards to every bike.  They even refused to tell me the viscosity of their oil - this is highly unprofessional. 

by the way, since I am working in a psychological field (more or less) I made some observations. I have been contemplated how some of the forum-communities are formed.  it is like a small society or a gang of internet buddies.  among many categories, there are those who tell everyone what to do and what is right; it is common that they themselves do not ask any questions because this would make them feel like they lose authority. then, there are those who know as much, or possibly more but hate to get into argument with other people, so they prefer to be in the background.  then, there are those who like to please the 'leaders'  (lick their bottom) and they would do anything to fit in and feel accepted.  and then there those who like me, present themselves as newbies and among these ones, some accept everything without any filtering, while few of them question things.

Most of us do not know each other personally - this is a fact.  If you met some of the members, you might have loved them or avoided their company at any cost.  Some of us are very young, or others (like me) not so young.  basically, what I am trying to say is that due to the anonymous nature of that interaction, care must be taken even more to respect other fellows, and not doing internet bullying like people do when they feel safe to express their frustration behind their laptops.

Welcome to the world of forums kris   :2:   

I have experienced most if not all the scenarios that you mention over many years of many different forums and still do on the 6 or so forums that I am active on.

It's a bit like seeing a programme on T.V that you don't like, ...................there's always the 'off' button on the remote    :173:   

Most forums though do offer great help and good advice on a variety of topics, this is one of the better ones IMHO  :002:   
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: Paul_Smith on February 15, 2018, 03:49:20 PM
*Originally Posted by kris [+]
Yes, I know and I highly respect his expertise.  but is all the antagonism really necessary?  I try to be respectful to everyone, but it is in my nature to question things as well, but then I get all that negative feedbacks. 

Hyperpro makes great springs, according to most, but this does not mean that they care about the details in regards to every bike.  They even refused to tell me the viscosity of their oil - this is highly unprofessional. 

by the way, since I am working in a psychological field (more or less) I made some observations. I have been contemplated how some of the forum-communities are formed.  it is like a small society or a gang of internet buddies.  among many categories, there are those who tell everyone what to do and what is right; it is common that they themselves do not ask any questions because this would make them feel like they lose authority. then, there are those who know as much, or possibly more but hate to get into argument with other people, so they prefer to be in the background.  then, there are those who like to please the 'leaders'  (lick their bottom) and they would do anything to fit in and feel accepted.  and then there those who like me, present themselves as newbies and among these ones, some accept everything without any filtering, while few of them question things.

Most of us do not know each other personally - this is a fact.  If you met some of the members, you might have loved them or avoided their company at any cost.  Some of us are very young, or others (like me) not so young.  basically, what I am trying to say is that due to the anonymous nature of that interaction, care must be taken even more to respect other fellows, and not doing internet bullying like people do when they feel safe to express their frustration behind their laptops.
Kris, what you say about forums is true, but there is another category of member that you didn't mention. There are the interlopers who stroll through a forum with no regard for conventions. Such members tend to generate strong antagonism in their wake and are usually not aware why. You keep saying you are curious about things and are happy to question them, and that is a good thing, as far as it goes. But the convention around here is that evidence trumps rumor and expertise trumps guessing, and whether or not you are aware of it, that is a convention that you repeatedly ignore. I am not an expert and I am not always right, but I can usually give the reasons why I think something is a certain way, and if you or someone else can show better reasons why it should be different, then I am happy (ish) to change my views.
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: mikep on February 15, 2018, 06:04:28 PM
What about the air gap. 

Enough with the perceived communication gap.
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: peter73 on February 16, 2018, 07:19:08 AM
Hi Kris,

The correct gap for your exact springs is precisely 118 mm.

Best,
Peter
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: kris on March 01, 2018, 05:43:12 PM
So I have disassembled the forks and set up the recommended by Hyperpro air gap.  But there is a point of confusion.  At which distance in mm from the top of the rod should the piston rod nut be fixed??  I checked in one of the forks, and it was around 13.5mm.  I have forgotten to check the other fork.  The manual is really very vague about this point, and I am fitting the forks tomorrow.  I would really appreciate some advice here!
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: Topbox on March 01, 2018, 08:00:48 PM
*Originally Posted by kris [+]
So I have disassembled the forks and set up the recommended by Hyperpro air gap.  But there is a point of confusion.  At which distance in mm from the top of the rod should the piston rod nut be fixed??  I checked in one of the forks, and it was around 13.5mm.  I have forgotten to check the other fork.  The manual is really very vague about this point, and I am fitting the forks tomorrow.  I would really appreciate some advice here!

Screw the nut as far down the damper rod as you can. Then, screw the fork top on the damper rod as far as you can. Then, screw the nut up the rod and nip it against the for top to lock it onto the damper rod.

TB  :028: :028:
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: Paeonia lactiflora on March 01, 2018, 11:08:57 PM
hi guys
,
Some serious advice(as one of hyperpro users and dealer)

The airgap advice is just for what it is.
These are based on the fact of average that most riders experience as good ( it has a direct influence on damping)
less makes stiffer and more makes softer.
The main function of the  spring is to push the bike back up(the weight of the bike and the rider)in neutral
and that the airgap is nothing more than a cushion(building up air pressure inside when going down)you need for a certain control
The oil is for damping and there for different thickness gives you also different reaction time
You can adjust this by using the re-bound screw
but be carefull.
Hyperpro uses SAE as a reference but most motorcycle brands gives you a advice in ISO
Kawa uses a oil whit a thickness of only 5(iso) and that is much thinner than the oil that is provided.
It is there for my experience that the hyperpro oil gives you to much stiffness(to slow to follow a bumpy road) and i chanced for my self
I prefer comfort instead a super bike feeling
But that is to find out and if needed to adjust whit some thinner oil.
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: kris on March 02, 2018, 01:10:38 AM
*Originally Posted by Topbox [+]
Screw the nut as far down the damper rod as you can. Then, screw the fork top on the damper rod as far as you can. Then, screw the nut up the rod and nip it against the for top to lock it onto the damper rod.

TB  :028: :028:

Topbox, thanks a lot!
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: kris on March 02, 2018, 01:35:33 AM
*Originally Posted by Paeonia lactiflora [+]
hi guys
,
Some serious advice(as one of hyperpro users and dealer)

The airgap advice is just for what it is.
These are based on the fact of average that most riders experience as good ( it has a direct influence on damping)
less makes stiffer and more makes softer.
The main function of the  spring is to push the bike back up(the weight of the bike and the rider)in neutral
and that the airgap is nothing more than a cushion(building up air pressure inside when going down)you need for a certain control
The oil is for damping and there for different thickness gives you also different reaction time
You can adjust this by using the re-bound screw
but be carefull.
Hyperpro uses SAE as a reference but most motorcycle brands gives you a advice in ISO
Kawa uses a oil whit a thickness of only 5(iso) and that is much thinner than the oil that is provided.
It is there for my experience that the hyperpro oil gives you to much stiffness(to slow to follow a bumpy road) and i chanced for my self
I prefer comfort instead a super bike feeling
But that is to find out and if needed to adjust whit some thinner oil.

I was told by one of the Hyperpro guys that their 10W fluid is 15 viscosity at 40C.  I am not sure if this is true as they were pretty reluctant to provide this information.  It is not sure where they source their fork fluids.  Personally, I am filling my forks with 5W Motul synthetic, which has similar specifications to the stock oil, and should last longer.  If this one is too thick, I will try 2.5W in the future.

Do you think that too much stiffness can be resolved with thinner oil, or this is just the nature of these springs?  Rebound damping is mostly about how fast the springs come back from their compressed position.  Even though, rebound damping has some influence on compression damping, so turning the damper adjuster a few turns more could theoretically soften the suspension, but I have no idea if this is true.

More air gap makes the front softer as air is compressible, but too little oil can have some adverse effects.  On the other hand, too small of a gap can create stress on the seals.  I have recently reduced radically the air gap in one of my old bikes as the springs were too soft and the bike was front diving far too much.  This worked as a temporary solution, but I will put stiffer springs in the future.
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: Topbox on March 02, 2018, 07:53:08 AM
Kris,

Rebound damping and compression damping are completely independent systems and one does not affect the other. Badly set up rebound can make the bike feel very hard which is often interpreted as being caused by compression damping.

With progressive  springs normal SAG measurements do not apply. So, before changing the oil to make it softer try backing off the pre load completely i.e fully anti clockwise.

TB

Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: peter73 on March 02, 2018, 08:20:39 AM
*Originally Posted by Topbox [+]
Kris,
Rebound damping and compression damping are completely independent systems and one does not affect the other...

(http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/eating/eating-popcorn-smiley-emoticon-1.gif)
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: kris on March 02, 2018, 04:17:36 PM
so I have finally installed the hyperpro springs and Nitron rear shock.  I did not have time to experiment yet with the new set up.  The bike seems to be more planted and takes better the road's imperfections, but the difference is not dramatic.  So far, I have front preload, 14mm, and rebound 5 clicks.  More than 14mm, the front felt too soft. 
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: Crosshairs on March 03, 2018, 07:51:37 PM
*Originally Posted by kris [+]
so I have finally installed the hyperpro springs and Nitron rear shock.  I did not have time to experiment yet with the new set up.  The bike seems to be more planted and takes better the road's imperfections, but the difference is not dramatic.  So far, I have front preload, 14mm, and rebound 5 clicks.  More than 14mm, the front felt too soft.

I liked the hyperpro front springs while I had them installed but ultimately went with Traxxion Dynamics cartridges..a bit spendy but worth it IMHO .
where you will find the most  difference with quality suspension is when you push the bike in the corners on not so great pavement..a few bumps that would send a stock bike into the woods will feel like nothing at all to your bike .
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: kris on March 04, 2018, 12:07:04 AM
*Originally Posted by Crosshairs [+]
I liked the hyperpro front springs while I had them installed but ultimately went with Traxxion Dynamics cartridges..a bit spendy but worth it IMHO .
where you will find the most  difference with quality suspension is when you push the bike in the corners on not so great pavement..a few bumps that would send a stock bike into the woods will feel like nothing at all to your bike .

They do look nice.  What kind of improvement have you noticed with Traxxion cartridges compared to Hyperpro? 
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: kris on March 04, 2018, 02:21:06 AM
*Originally Posted by Crosshairs [+]
I liked the hyperpro front springs while I had them installed but ultimately went with Traxxion Dynamics cartridges..a bit spendy but worth it IMHO .
where you will find the most  difference with quality suspension is when you push the bike in the corners on not so great pavement..a few bumps that would send a stock bike into the woods will feel like nothing at all to your bike .

Crosshairs,

I looked at one of the older threads, and you wrote there that there is compression damping in Traxxion set up.  Do you have another adjuster for that purpose or the rebound damping controls both? 

I did notice one problem with my bike, that at very high speed it begins to shake to the point of being dangerous.  Could it be suspension related? 
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: Crosshairs on March 04, 2018, 12:48:51 PM
*Originally Posted by kris [+]
Crosshairs,

I looked at one of the older threads, and you wrote there that there is compression damping in Traxxion set up.  Do you have another adjuster for that purpose or the rebound damping controls both? 

With the Traxxion cartridges, rebound and compression are  individually adjustable so there are adjustments for each

*Originally Posted by kris [+]
I did notice one problem with my bike, that at very high speed it begins to shake to the point of being dangerous.  Could it be suspension related?

it certainly could. A common cause is the front wheel being "to light" meaning that over bumps the wheel does not fully return to the road surface and starts to skip across the bumps.... more rebound will help keep the front wheel on the road.

also,if it occurs when your hard on the throttle,   more compression damping in the rear will help keep the geometry right by reducing rear squatting under hard acceleration.

Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: kris on March 04, 2018, 03:58:40 PM
*Originally Posted by Crosshairs [+]
With the Traxxion cartridges, rebound and compression are  individually adjustable so there are adjustments for each

it certainly could. A common cause is the front wheel being "to light" meaning that over bumps the wheel does not fully return to the road surface and starts to skip across the bumps.... more rebound will help keep the front wheel on the road.

also,if it occurs when your hard on the throttle,   more compression damping in the rear will help keep the geometry right by reducing rear squatting under hard acceleration.

Great, thanks! I had this issues with the bike getting unstable above 200km/h.  I rarely ride so fast, but sometimes I do for fun.

Good to know that there is a compression adjuster in the Traxxon cartridges.  However, on their website, they do not mention about the adjustable fork caps.  They only offer it as an option for some bikes.
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: Crosshairs on March 04, 2018, 07:30:29 PM
*Originally Posted by kris [+]
Good to know that there is a compression adjuster in the Traxxon cartridges.  However, on their website, they do not mention about the adjustable fork caps.  They only offer it as an option for some bikes.

since our bike only has one adjuster on the stock caps  you need the new caps which come as part of the package. if you give them forks that already have both adjusters, you could use your stock caps and save a few bucks..I think the caps are an extra  $100 or so if you need them  ( we do) ...not really sure...

anyway, they are hard to get pics of but here they are..
Left side

(https://images.versys1000.com/2018-03-04-14.18.4690206a7cd81ae558.jpg)

right side

(https://images.versys1000.com/2018-03-04-14.18.38cec294a8d07675c0.jpg)

its hard to tell from the pictures, but the black part accepts an  allen wrench to adjust  preload, and the little red and silver adjuster  accept an allen wrench to adjust rebound and compression

pardon my finger in the picture, I had to hold  back the cables to  be able to see the caps
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: kris on March 05, 2018, 01:37:06 AM
*Originally Posted by Crosshairs [+]
since our bike only has one adjuster on the stock caps  you need the new caps which come as part of the package. if you give them forks that already have both adjusters, you could use your stock caps and save a few bucks..I think the caps are an extra  $100 or so if you need them  ( we do) ...not really sure...

anyway, they are hard to get pics of but here they are..
Left side

(https://images.versys1000.com/2018-03-04-14.18.4690206a7cd81ae558.jpg)

right side

(https://images.versys1000.com/2018-03-04-14.18.38cec294a8d07675c0.jpg)

its hard to tell from the pictures, but the black part accepts an  allen wrench to adjust  preload, and the little red and silver adjuster  accept an allen wrench to adjust rebound and compression

pardon my finger in the picture, I had to hold  back the cables to  be able to see the caps

Thank you Crosshairs!  I cannot send my forks since I have the bike in Thailand.  I will have to make them ship the cartridges and install them myself.  They also offer the fork kit tool, which can make things much easier.  So if I understand you correctly one does not need request these fork caps as they are already included in the set?
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: Crosshairs on March 05, 2018, 12:08:44 PM
*Originally Posted by kris [+]
Thank you Crosshairs!  I cannot send my forks since I have the bike in Thailand.  I will have to make them ship the cartridges and install them myself.  They also offer the fork kit tool, which can make things much easier.  So if I understand you correctly one does not need request these fork caps as they are already included in the set?
Yes, they are part of the kit.  :031:
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: kris on March 05, 2018, 04:01:40 PM
*Originally Posted by Crosshairs [+]
Yes, they are part of the kit.  :031:

Great!  I am going to install it soon.  Thank you for inspiring me to spend more money on Versys :)
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: kris on March 30, 2018, 07:28:17 AM
anybody has a suggestion for the front fork sag?  I installed the traxxion cartridges and the static sag appears to be 30mm, and the rider's sag, 45mm.  there is no much information how to set sag on 'adventure' bikes, in the family of V1. the conventional knowledge suggests 30% of the suspension travel, which would be 50mm in this case....but I noticed that many sets it up lower than that. 
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: Crosshairs on March 30, 2018, 07:30:18 PM
I answered your PM but I think I'm at 30 mm front rider sag...so try and tighten it up a bit and see if you like it ..Im 10 turns in on the preload and Im about 5 Lbs lighter than you
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: kris on April 02, 2018, 11:42:56 AM
*Originally Posted by Crosshairs [+]
I answered your PM but I think I'm at 30 mm front rider sag...so try and tighten it up a bit and see if you like it ..Im 10 turns in on the preload and Im about 5 Lbs lighter than you

From what I understand, lower sag in the front than in the rear is better for cornering.  What happens if the front and rear are the same?   For now, have 40mm in the front and 45 at the rear.
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: Sonny on April 02, 2018, 02:48:52 PM
I'm not down in the weeds like Kris and others are on this, but it seems logical than uneven sag will cause rocking of the chassis under load.  :notsure:
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: Crosshairs on April 02, 2018, 03:06:19 PM
*Originally Posted by kris [+]
From what I understand, lower sag in the front than in the rear is better for cornering.  What happens if the front and rear are the same?   For now, have 40mm in the front and 45 at the rear.

yes, a lower front  makes it turn in  faster ...there is a point of diminishing returns though ..you may also  lose some high speed stability and make the bike "nervous" if its too low.
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: Crosshairs on April 02, 2018, 03:43:34 PM
*Originally Posted by Sonny [+]
I'm not down in the weeds like Kris and others are on this, but it seems logical than uneven sag will cause rocking of the chassis under load.  :notsure:

Sonny, if the bike is sprung and damped properly for the rider, it should rise and fall front and rear pretty evenly .
The front to rear height bias should not be that big of a deal unless the rear ends up packing down and making the bike push in turns. This was the problem I had with the stock suspension.  for me, there was just not enough adjustment  in the rear  to control the spring.  it lacks any compression adjustments and the rebound is minimally effective 

The same applies to the front suspension...if you collapse the forks with hard braking, you drastically change the rake of the bike which will make it turn quicker...and maybe quicker than you wanted it to.

I understand myself and maybe a few others ride this bike in a fashion that it really wasn't designed to be ridden , but thats the beauty of the big V...its  a sport bike with bags if you put some decent suspension on it.
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: kris on April 02, 2018, 06:01:01 PM
except for Race Tech, many seem to suggest larger sag for the front than for the rear; however, the thing is that this usually refers to sport bikes which have longer travel in the front than in the rear.  the problem is that the internet is dominated by track or off-road riders who practice extreme sports rather than just street riding or touring.  I would think that if in V1 the front and rear have the same travel, and one is sitting more upright, it might be logical to set similar sag on both ends, but it is just a speculation.  I personally am inclined to lower the rear (lower preload) and raise the front as I like to sit back on my bike, which I find more comfortable for longer travels, and also lowering the rear suspension helps my feet to be closer to the ground.
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: Crosshairs on April 02, 2018, 08:08:21 PM
 Its your bike Kris, set it up anyway you want. If you want a chopper, then turn it into a chopper...who are we to stop you.


EDIT: I just had another thought, you should put some ape hangers on there..they go well  with the chopper look  :008:
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: kris on April 03, 2018, 01:56:55 AM
*Originally Posted by Crosshairs [+]
Its your bike Kris, set it up anyway you want. If you want a chopper, then turn it into a chopper...who are we to stop you.


EDIT: I just had another thought, you should put some ape hangers on there..they go well  with the chopper look  :008:

I do not want a chopper or destroy the geometry of the bike and its original purpose. it is just matter of shifting weight a few mm. I did raise the handlebar 20mm plus changed the seat (Seat Concept) and find it more comfortable.  the rider's position still remains very much sporty.   incidentally, it always puzzles me what is the allure of the typical sports bikes; unless one is racing, laying on the gas tank with so much stress on the arms and squashed groin looks masochistic to me.
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: Pickaxe on April 03, 2018, 12:42:33 PM
How can you describe the rider's position as sporty? It's as unsporty as you can get ie. upright.
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: kris on April 03, 2018, 01:17:05 PM
*Originally Posted by Pickaxe [+]
How can you describe the rider's position as sporty? It's as unsporty as you can get ie. upright.

It is relative I guess.  By sporty, I mean that I am leaning forward, rather than sitting back; because of the position of the handlebar and geometry of the bike, the body is placed more forward.  This is why they call it 'sport tourer' I suppose. My crf250 is upright, but one is not leaning forward, so I am further from the tank. For instance, the Tiger 800, road version, is somewhat between these two. 
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: Pickaxe on April 03, 2018, 02:28:57 PM
*Originally Posted by kris [+]
It is relative I guess.  By sporty, I mean that I am leaning forward, rather than sitting back; because of the position of the handlebar and geometry of the bike, the body is placed more forward.  This is why they call it 'sport tourer' I suppose. My crf250 is upright, but one is not leaning forward, so I am further from the tank. For instance, the Tiger 800, road version, is somewhat between these two.

It's relative to your experience and/or personal dimensions. However, in the grand scheme of things the Versys is an upright position almost identical to my BMW R1200RT tourer. My Triumph Sprint GT has a sports tourer geometry and my sons Suzuki GSXR750 would be described as sports.

See for yourself     http://cycle-ergo.com/
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: peter73 on April 03, 2018, 02:43:03 PM
*Originally Posted by Pickaxe [+]
It's relative to your experience ...
(http://mcmmanufacturing.com/_product_images_/var/resizes/Dirt-King-Children%27s-Tricycles/Dirt-King-Childrens-Tricycle-JPG-Images/DK-250-R-ChildrensTrike-Red-Front.jpg)
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: Pickaxe on April 03, 2018, 03:08:18 PM
 :008: :008: :008:
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: TYKE on April 03, 2018, 03:37:44 PM
*Originally Posted by peter73 [+]
(http://mcmmanufacturing.com/_product_images_/var/resizes/Dirt-King-Children%27s-Tricycles/Dirt-King-Childrens-Tricycle-JPG-Images/DK-250-R-ChildrensTrike-Red-Front.jpg)


 :008:   :008:   :028: 

Kriss, it's only a minor detail but the Versys is actually marketed as an 'Adventure Tourer' not 'Sport Tourer'  ...at least it is here in the U.K  :028: 

I would be interested to see some pictures of your bike now that it has been somewhat modified .....any chance  :question:       
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: kris on April 05, 2018, 01:51:00 AM
Ok, but could anyone tell me what would be the result of setting the same sag on front and rear on Versys?  as I wrote before, considering that both wheels are 17, the position is upright, front and rear suspension has the same 150mm travel - would'it be more in harmony with the bike's geometry to have the same hight on both ends, at least for touring purposes? 
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: kris on April 05, 2018, 02:14:12 AM
*Originally Posted by Pickaxe [+]
It's relative to your experience and/or personal dimensions. However, in the grand scheme of things the Versys is an upright position almost identical to my BMW R1200RT tourer. My Triumph Sprint GT has a sports tourer geometry and my sons Suzuki GSXR750 would be described as sports.

See for yourself     http://cycle-ergo.com/

cycle-ergo is a very useful site! however, my position on the Versys is not the same as shown, i.e 0" lean.  Even with having the handlebar raised, I am definitely leaning forward quite a bit. Maybe my arms are not very long...But leaning forward in that way gives me more sense of control in turns.  I have attached one image, which shows similar rider's position.
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: kris on April 05, 2018, 03:02:43 AM
*Originally Posted by TYKE [+]

 :008:   :008:   :028: 

Kriss, it's only a minor detail but the Versys is actually marketed as an 'Adventure Tourer' not 'Sport Tourer'  ...at least it is here in the U.K  :028: 

I would be interested to see some pictures of your bike now that it has been somewhat modified .....any chance  :question:       


Tyke, I have invested quite a bit into my Versys.  But I am not like many riders, who keep replacing their bikes every couple of years.  I intend to keep it. 

Other than some minor changes, like LED turn signals, LED headlight, Seat from Seat Concept, raising handlebars 20mm, Angel GT tires, better windshield, SW-motech engine and sump guards, magnetic oil drain plug, etc.,...I made more serious modifications.

From what I can remember, I fitted Nitron R1 rear shock, Traxxion Cartridges, Brembo Radial master cylinder, Brembo Radial calipers, and Galfer rotors and HEL brake lines.  I also removed the CAT and installed the Akrapovic slip on.  I did not change the map in order to compensate the changes, but instead installed Booser Plug (it tells the ECU that the ambient temperature is 20C lower than in reality, and enriches the mixture by 6%), and added O2 sensor optimizer. I also fitted the foam air filter made for me custom in Australia; it has a better flow and provides superior filtering action; Incidentally, I also covered the air inlet with a piece cut from pantyhose. It is something I have done on other bikes - very effective to keep dust and bugs out :)

https://photos.versys1000.com/image/6seA
https://photos.versys1000.com/image/69OE
https://photos.versys1000.com/image/6wAf
https://photos.versys1000.com/image/4Yiz
https://photos.versys1000.com/image/6ZHk
https://photos.versys1000.com/image/4R1F
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: TYKE on April 05, 2018, 08:22:00 AM
Thanks Kris, and thanks for explaining your modifications

I was hoping to see a better picture of the 'finished' product  :034:     
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: Paul_Smith on April 05, 2018, 10:01:28 AM
Unfortunately, it is written by experts: https://hyperpro.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/2012-shock-manual-hyperpro-ENG-light-for-email.pdf (https://hyperpro.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/2012-shock-manual-hyperpro-ENG-light-for-email.pdf)
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: Crosshairs on April 05, 2018, 03:04:29 PM
*Originally Posted by kris [+]
Ok, but could anyone tell me what would be the result of setting the same sag on front and rear on Versys?  as I wrote before, considering that both wheels are 17, the position is upright, front and rear suspension has the same 150mm travel - would'it be more in harmony with the bike's geometry to have the same hight on both ends, at least for touring purposes?

first you need to understand that sag and ride height are not the same thing...then you can start to understand why the sag is set the way it is. 

I suggest that you follow the suggestions of the suspension manufacturer,  they do know a bit about their products
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: peter73 on April 05, 2018, 03:30:43 PM
*Originally Posted by kris [+]
... I also covered the air inlet with a piece cut from pantyhose ...

Have you tried pantyhoses of different weaving? I think I've read somewhere that it makes quite a difference. Colours too, probably.
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: kris on April 05, 2018, 03:37:33 PM
*Originally Posted by Crosshairs [+]
first you need to understand that sag and ride height are not the same thing...then you can start to understand why the sag is set the way it is. 

I suggest that you follow the suggestions of the suspension manufacturer,  they do know a bit about their products

I did not see any 'manufacturer's' explicit recommendations.  There are just generic instructions.  For instance, Traxxion suggests minimum 40mm of rider's sag on the front, which is a general knowledge, according to the rule of 30% sag.  When you say, 'the sag is set the way it is', what does it mean?  Everybody sets it differently.  This does not answer my question if the idea of setting the sag evenly in the front and rear is sound.
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: Crosshairs on April 05, 2018, 05:24:12 PM
*Originally Posted by kris [+]
  When you say, 'the sag is set the way it is', what does it mean?  Everybody sets it differently.  This does not answer my question if the idea of setting the sag evenly in the front and rear is sound.


 what Im saying is that you can set the sag the same front and rear and still not have a level bike, because  sag and ride height are not the same thing and can  be  adjusted independently of each other .

in any event, I mean no disrespect, but I have no desire to go down this rabbit hole with you again.

set your bike up any way you see fit, then  ride it and enjoy it.
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: TYKE on April 05, 2018, 07:34:01 PM
 



*Originally Posted by Crosshairs [+]

 what Im saying is that you can set the sag the same front and rear and still not have a level bike, because  sag and ride height are not the same thing and can  be  adjusted independently of each other .

in any event, I mean no disrespect, but I have no desire to go down this rabbit hole with you again.

set your bike up any way you see fit, then  ride it and enjoy it.


Hear Hear  :002:
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: Sonny on April 05, 2018, 07:58:07 PM
You have to hand it to Kris though -- he has invested a huge lot of time, study and money in his V trying to take it to the next level when a lot of us are happy with it more or less as is. I don't look askance at that. With all that effort he is going to see improvements... we might ride his bike and say oh my goodness. His process might leave him something of a tortured soul unable to ever be satisfied, but it will get him results. So go on witcha bad self, dude...  :028:
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: peter73 on April 05, 2018, 08:19:38 PM
*Originally Posted by Sonny [+]
... With all that effort he is going to see improvements ...

Improvements require more than just arbitrary efforts, I'm affraid.
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: TYKE on April 05, 2018, 08:54:11 PM
Its about what Kris wants from his bike and how it rides and pleases him, it isn't easy for us to help and or advise him in his quest to improve his machine.

Good luck Kris, enjoy your bike my friend.

Oh, BTW what improvements /modifications,  if anything have you got planned next  :question:   

Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: Crosshairs on April 05, 2018, 09:11:36 PM
*Originally Posted by Sonny [+]
You have to hand it to Kris though -- he has invested a huge lot of time, study and money in his V trying to take it to the next level when a lot of us are happy with it more or less as is. I don't look askance at that. With all that effort he is going to see improvements... we might ride his bike and say oh my goodness. His process might leave him something of a tortured soul unable to ever be satisfied, but it will get him results. So go on witcha bad self, dude...  :028:

There is  improvement for sure...you cant  compare the suspension he has to stock suspension..they are not even in the same class ......you need to do no more than to just ride the bike normally to feel the difference.


he just needs to stop messing with it and go ride it ..:)
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: kris on April 06, 2018, 12:46:41 AM
*Originally Posted by Crosshairs [+]

 what Im saying is that you can set the sag the same front and rear and still not have a level bike, because  sag and ride height are not the same thing and can  be  adjusted independently of each other .

in any event, I mean no disrespect, but I have no desire to go down this rabbit hole with you again.

set your bike up any way you see fit, then  ride it and enjoy it.

yes, sure. my queston was just theoretical.
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: kris on April 06, 2018, 06:51:41 AM
*Originally Posted by peter73 [+]
Have you tried pantyhoses of different weaving? I think I've read somewhere that it makes quite a difference. Colours too, probably.

underestimating the benefit of pantyhose on top of the air filter would be a big mistake.  It adds a feminine quality to the bike, irrespectively of the color :). With that addition, you might find out that you need to change the main air lifer less frequently. I used to run crappy K@N pod filters on my Enfields (they should not be called 'filters' as they do not filter anything at all) and putting on top of them one layer of pantyhose would keep the main filter clean in most dusty conditions without restricting the air flow.  It is an old school trick and it works great.
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: Sonny on April 06, 2018, 08:04:18 AM
Aah yes, off-label uses for panty hose.  :7: In the recording studio we stretch PH over a loop of bent coat hanger wire to make a pop filter that lets you sing very close to sensitive studio microphones. It gives that up close bedroom voice like Curtis Mayfield and many others. Another old school trick.
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: Paul_Smith on April 06, 2018, 10:07:03 AM
*Originally Posted by Crosshairs [+]
There is  improvement for sure...you cant  compare the suspension he has to stock suspension..they are not even in the same class ......you need to do no more than to just ride the bike normally to feel the difference.


he just needs to stop messing with it and go ride it ..:)
Better bits do not make a better bike all on their own. The suspension you have is better then standard not because it is more expensive, but  because you have the appropriate bits appropriately setup. I could put the same bits on my bike and ruin the ride.
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: Bart on April 06, 2018, 10:37:13 AM
Kris, re sag setting, why don't you experiment with max and min or at least extreme settings at either end and report back with your findings ?
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: kris on April 06, 2018, 11:27:52 AM
*Originally Posted by Bart [+]
Kris, re sag setting, why don't you experiment with max and min or at least extreme settings at either end and report back with your findings ?

Bart. I will try.  The rear Nitron shock came already with a minimum setting.  Even with zero preload, the sag was in the range of 45-50mm.
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: peter73 on April 06, 2018, 11:36:20 AM
*Originally Posted by kris [+]
underestimating the benefit of pantyhose on top of the air filter would be a big mistake.  It adds a feminine quality to the bike, irrespectively of the color :). With that addition, you might find out that you need to change the main air lifer less frequently. I used to run crappy K@N pod filters on my Enfields (they should not be called 'filters' as they do not filter anything at all) and putting on top of them one layer of pantyhose would keep the main filter clean in most dusty conditions without restricting the air flow.  It is an old school trick and it works great.

Underestimating the benfit of pantyhose on top of anything is a big mistake - full stop!

But I love how you upgraded your stock filters to K&N for ncreased airflow and then fixed the increased fliw with a pantyhose. It is very much what seems to be your MO in general and I respect that, especially because of the fact it has zero effect on any bikes other than your own.
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: kris on April 06, 2018, 11:41:47 AM
*Originally Posted by Paul_Smith [+]
Better bits do not make a better bike all on their own. The suspension you have is better then standard not because it is more expensive, but  because you have the appropriate bits appropriately setup. I could put the same bits on my bike and ruin the ride.

I don't think that a better suspension could ruin your bike.  Both Nitron shock and Traxxion cartridges are lovely and have the additional control for compression damping; also they come with spring rates for the rider's weight, which is not the case with OEM ones. The Brembo brake set up might not be to everyone's liking, but Galfer rotors are doubtlessly superior.
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: kris on April 06, 2018, 11:48:49 AM
*Originally Posted by peter73 [+]
Underestimating the benfit of pantyhose on top of anything is a big mistake - full stop!

But I love how you upgraded your stock filters to K&N for ncreased airflow and then fixed the increased fliw with a pantyhose. It is very much what seems to be your MO in general and I respect that, especially because of the fact it has zero effect on any bikes other than your own.

From my experience, K&N filters are a joke even when oiled.  The company is very clever in promoting its filters in the name of more air flow.  When I did not know any better, I used to run them as external filters, and after a ride in dusty conditions, the inside of the filters was becoming very soon black, which is unacceptable.  The foam filters, on the other hand, remain always clean on the inside. 
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: Crosshairs on April 06, 2018, 01:17:58 PM
*Originally Posted by Paul_Smith [+]
Better bits do not make a better bike all on their own. The suspension you have is better then standard not because it is more expensive, but  because you have the appropriate bits appropriately setup. I could put the same bits on my bike and ruin the ride.
you are of course correct, but I am quite sure you could put my bits on your bike, and you would be able to adjust them to work just fine for you....provided your not 300Lbs ...:)
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: peter73 on April 06, 2018, 02:21:43 PM
*Originally Posted by kris [+]
... Both Nitron shock and Traxxion cartridges are lovely and have the additional control for compression damping ...

Using custom suspension may only result in an improvement over stock if it is properly set-up.

Setting up suspension properly requires understanding of how it works and what each control does. And I don't mean chaotick mix of theoretical "knowledge" gained from browsing all kinds of forums - I mean practal knowledge and experience allowing you to assess whats wrong with the initial setup in the first place and exacrly what is required to fix it.

You can put all the best parts on a bike and still have a worse result than stock with basic recommended settings.
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: kris on April 06, 2018, 02:28:41 PM
*Originally Posted by peter73 [+]
Using custom suspension may only result in an improvement over stock if it is properly set-up.

Setting up suspension properly requires understanding of how it works and what each control does. And I don't mean chaotick mix of theoretical "knowledge" gained from browsing all kinds of forums - I mean practal knowledge and experience allowing you to assess whats wrong with the initial setup in the first place and exacrly what is required to fix it.

You can put all the best parts on a bike and still have a worse result than stock with basic recommended settings.

Agreed.  I am still learning. 
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: kris on April 07, 2018, 03:11:56 AM
So I did test a bit the extreme spring preload settings.  Surprisingly, with zero preload, the bike felt not too bad, other than the front dropped a bit too much for my taste. The bike was absorbing the depressions in the road very nicely.  However, it would be probably too soft for some serious cornering. By the way, even with Zero preload, the rider's sag is still within the generic 1/3 of suspension travel. 

With the maximum preload in the front, the forks were non-responsive and felt wooden (decreasing compression damping could theoretically compensate for this), even though the front dive upon braking was approximately the same (unlike the OEM forks which for some mysterious reasons were diving significantly less with more preload; could be that in stock forks, turning the preload is more intertwined with compression damping?). 

The roads I am riding here in Thailand are of acceptable quality but tend to be uneven, full of depressions, so a bit softer settings make more sense in my mind.  Anyway, I will experiment more, but for now, I keep the manufacture's recommendation, 7 turns in, in the front, which is exactly in the middle.  But I will try 5 turns in instead later on.