Versys 1000 Forum

Versys 1000 => Suspension and Chassis Set-up => Topic started by: kris on February 12, 2018, 12:31:36 PM

Title: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: kris on February 12, 2018, 12:31:36 PM
I got the front springs from Hyperpro and am going to install them soon.  Anyone has information how much air gap is specified?  Since the springs are progressive, so I assume the air gap needs to be bigger since the progressive part takes more space.  I am not sure how the air/oil ratio works in front forks.  The air works as springs too, but so should the oil. 
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: Crosshairs on February 12, 2018, 03:19:18 PM
air gap is a byproduct of oil height...set the oil height to the proper spec, and the height to the top is  what your air gap is ...if you want more air gap, you use less oil.

honestly though, I would just go with what oil height  Hyper Pro specifies... they know a bit about their springs
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: kris on February 13, 2018, 02:52:36 AM
*Originally Posted by Crosshairs [+]
air gap is a byproduct of oil height...set the oil height to the proper spec, and the height to the top is  what your air gap is ...if you want more air gap, you use less oil.

honestly though, I would just go with what oil height  Hyper Pro specifies... they know a bit about their springs

yes, oil hight is measured by the remaining air gap.  i will need to contact them.  to stock is around 108mm, so I suppose that with H spring, the gap would be around 120mm.
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: Paul_Smith on February 13, 2018, 04:07:37 PM
*Originally Posted by kris [+]
yes, oil hight is measured by the remaining air gap.  i will need to contact them.  to stock is around 108mm, so I suppose that with H spring, the gap would be around 120mm.
Why?

What makes you think the gap would change? And what makes you think it would change by 12mm?
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: kris on February 13, 2018, 04:13:47 PM
*Originally Posted by Paul_Smith [+]
Why?

What makes you think the gap would change? And what makes you think it would change by 12mm?

I vaguely remember reading somewhere that it would be 120mm, but I am not sure. The reason for gap change is that the progressive part of the spring takes up more space, so more oil is pushed up; hence, hyperpro instructions take this under consideration.
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: Paul_Smith on February 13, 2018, 08:54:52 PM
*Originally Posted by kris [+]
I vaguely remember reading somewhere that it would be 120mm, but I am not sure. The reason for gap change is that the progressive part of the spring takes up more space, so more oil is pushed up; hence, hyperpro instructions take this under consideration.
You have me confused now. The hyperpro instructions tell you to account for the extra volume of the progressive part of the spring, but don't tell you by how much? That doesn't seem very professional of them. You did know that the air gap is set and adjusted before the springs are mounted, not after? 
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: kris on February 14, 2018, 01:51:57 AM
*Originally Posted by Paul_Smith [+]
You have me confused now. The hyperpro instructions tell you to account for the extra volume of the progressive part of the spring, but don't tell you by how much? That doesn't seem very professional of them. You did know that the air gap is set and adjusted before the springs are mounted, not after?

Yes, I know.  I have the information from other people installing Hyperpro, but I was wondering if someone knows specifically for V1.  Also, this air gap is not a clear science for me; perhaps there is some room for more or less oil in tuning the suspension.  The springs are waiting for me in another country, and am not sure if the manual is included.  Anyway, if the instructions are not there, I will contact them, even though these guys are not so easy to communicate with.  For instance, when I asked them before about the viscosity of the oil they use, other than the weight, they wrote me that this is an information they do not share :(
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: 100milesaway on February 14, 2018, 04:47:05 AM
*Originally Posted by kris [+]
Yes, I know.  I have the information from other people installing Hyperpro, but I was wondering if someone knows specifically for V1.  Also, this air gap is not a clear science for me; perhaps there is some room for more or less oil in tuning the suspension.  The springs are waiting for me in another country, and am not sure if the manual is included.  Anyway, if the instructions are not there, I will contact them, even though these guys are not so easy to communicate with.  For instance, when I asked them before about the viscosity of the oil they use, other than the weight, they wrote me that this is an information they do not share :(
Are you dealing with Hyperpro themselves, or an agent  :question:. All sounds a bit mickey mouse to me :006:
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: kris on February 14, 2018, 05:44:54 AM
I have emailed Hyperpro a few times, to some of their websites.  Anyway, never mind.  I will figure it out.
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: kris on February 14, 2018, 08:08:20 AM
I received an email from Hyperpro headquarters, they say '110mm' gap, which is not much more than stock.  It is a bit surprising as, from another forum I saw, the air gap with H springs was suggested much larger than OEM.
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: Topbox on February 14, 2018, 09:58:13 AM
I'm sure you could work it out if you wanted to if you know the number of extra coils, spring wire diameter and coil diameter and convert that volume to oil height difference within your forks.

However, you've got quite a bit of latitude in oil height before it actually affects the handling. In any event with progressive springs the spring will probably go super strong way before the air gap has any impact. So I wouldn't worry too much

TB
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: Pickaxe on February 14, 2018, 12:42:21 PM
I can see this developing into a mega thread :002:
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: kris on February 14, 2018, 01:10:04 PM
*Originally Posted by Topbox [+]
I'm sure you could work it out if you wanted to if you know the number of extra coils, spring wire diameter and coil diameter and convert that volume to oil height difference within your forks.

However, you've got quite a bit of latitude in oil height before it actually affects the handling. In any event with progressive springs the spring will probably go super strong way before the air gap has any impact. So I wouldn't worry too much

TB

Topbox, thanks. Yes, you probably are right.
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: Paul_Smith on February 14, 2018, 03:07:55 PM
*Originally Posted by kris [+]
I received an email from Hyperpro headquarters, they say '110mm' gap, which is not much more than stock.  It is a bit surprising as, from another forum I saw, the air gap with H springs was suggested much larger than OEM.
You are doing it again. You are questioning the advice that the expert gave directly to you because of something someone somewhere might or might not have said. Why do you do that? If Hyperpro tell you that the airgap for their springs is 110mm, who in the world do you think might actually know any better than them? 
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: kris on February 14, 2018, 03:32:39 PM
*Originally Posted by Paul_Smith [+]
You are doing it again. You are questioning the advice that the expert gave directly to you because of something someone somewhere might or might not have said. Why do you do that? If Hyperpro tell you that the airgap for their springs is 110mm, who in the world do you think might actually know any better than them?

it is not a matter of knowing things better.  I was surprised, that's all.

it is you who are doing 'it' again.  I am getting tired of dealing with such autocratic, know-it-all nonsense.   you could benefit from becoming a nicer person.   
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: Topbox on February 14, 2018, 04:32:15 PM
*Originally Posted by kris [+]
it is not a matter of knowing things better.  I was surprised, that's all.

it is you who are doing 'it' again.  I am getting tired of dealing with such autocratic, know-it-all nonsense.   you could benefit from becoming a nicer person.   

Paul might have a few faults but being wrong isn't one of them  :whistle: :whistle:

Kris, thats what I say to the carving knife when I want her to shut up " yes love your probably right"  :2:

TB
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: kris on February 15, 2018, 02:02:17 PM
*Originally Posted by Topbox [+]
Paul might have a few faults but being wrong isn't one of them  :whistle: :whistle:

Kris, thats what I say to the carving knife when I want her to shut up " yes love your probably right"  :2:

TB

Yes, I know and I highly respect his expertise.  but is all the antagonism really necessary?  I try to be respectful to everyone, but it is in my nature to question things as well, but then I get all that negative feedbacks. 

Hyperpro makes great springs, according to most, but this does not mean that they care about the details in regards to every bike.  They even refused to tell me the viscosity of their oil - this is highly unprofessional. 

by the way, since I am working in a psychological field (more or less) I made some observations. I have been contemplated how some of the forum-communities are formed.  it is like a small society or a gang of internet buddies.  among many categories, there are those who tell everyone what to do and what is right; it is common that they themselves do not ask any questions because this would make them feel like they lose authority. then, there are those who know as much, or possibly more but hate to get into argument with other people, so they prefer to be in the background.  then, there are those who like to please the 'leaders'  (lick their bottom) and they would do anything to fit in and feel accepted.  and then there those who like me, present themselves as newbies and among these ones, some accept everything without any filtering, while few of them question things.

Most of us do not know each other personally - this is a fact.  If you met some of the members, you might have loved them or avoided their company at any cost.  Some of us are very young, or others (like me) not so young.  basically, what I am trying to say is that due to the anonymous nature of that interaction, care must be taken even more to respect other fellows, and not doing internet bullying like people do when they feel safe to express their frustration behind their laptops.
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: mikep on February 15, 2018, 02:35:21 PM
Well said Kris.  :028:
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: mikep on February 15, 2018, 02:48:07 PM
Now, back to your regularly scheduled program.

Air gap as I understand it, does not have to be a constant.  I think an optimal gap is chosen to work well without any negative side effects (or affects, I get confused on that one). 

I think... the gap can be incresed to get a less progressive rise in compression and maybe more travel (with the added risk of bottoming out at the extreme) . Less gap for just the opposite. 

There is a way to measure the maximum travel of the fork and use that to calculate or assume what the maximum gap should be. 
Maybe somebody has a more precise explanation.
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: TYKE on February 15, 2018, 02:51:43 PM
*Originally Posted by kris [+]
Yes, I know and I highly respect his expertise.  but is all the antagonism really necessary?  I try to be respectful to everyone, but it is in my nature to question things as well, but then I get all that negative feedbacks. 

Hyperpro makes great springs, according to most, but this does not mean that they care about the details in regards to every bike.  They even refused to tell me the viscosity of their oil - this is highly unprofessional. 

by the way, since I am working in a psychological field (more or less) I made some observations. I have been contemplated how some of the forum-communities are formed.  it is like a small society or a gang of internet buddies.  among many categories, there are those who tell everyone what to do and what is right; it is common that they themselves do not ask any questions because this would make them feel like they lose authority. then, there are those who know as much, or possibly more but hate to get into argument with other people, so they prefer to be in the background.  then, there are those who like to please the 'leaders'  (lick their bottom) and they would do anything to fit in and feel accepted.  and then there those who like me, present themselves as newbies and among these ones, some accept everything without any filtering, while few of them question things.

Most of us do not know each other personally - this is a fact.  If you met some of the members, you might have loved them or avoided their company at any cost.  Some of us are very young, or others (like me) not so young.  basically, what I am trying to say is that due to the anonymous nature of that interaction, care must be taken even more to respect other fellows, and not doing internet bullying like people do when they feel safe to express their frustration behind their laptops.

Welcome to the world of forums kris   :2:   

I have experienced most if not all the scenarios that you mention over many years of many different forums and still do on the 6 or so forums that I am active on.

It's a bit like seeing a programme on T.V that you don't like, ...................there's always the 'off' button on the remote    :173:   

Most forums though do offer great help and good advice on a variety of topics, this is one of the better ones IMHO  :002:   
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: Paul_Smith on February 15, 2018, 03:49:20 PM
*Originally Posted by kris [+]
Yes, I know and I highly respect his expertise.  but is all the antagonism really necessary?  I try to be respectful to everyone, but it is in my nature to question things as well, but then I get all that negative feedbacks. 

Hyperpro makes great springs, according to most, but this does not mean that they care about the details in regards to every bike.  They even refused to tell me the viscosity of their oil - this is highly unprofessional. 

by the way, since I am working in a psychological field (more or less) I made some observations. I have been contemplated how some of the forum-communities are formed.  it is like a small society or a gang of internet buddies.  among many categories, there are those who tell everyone what to do and what is right; it is common that they themselves do not ask any questions because this would make them feel like they lose authority. then, there are those who know as much, or possibly more but hate to get into argument with other people, so they prefer to be in the background.  then, there are those who like to please the 'leaders'  (lick their bottom) and they would do anything to fit in and feel accepted.  and then there those who like me, present themselves as newbies and among these ones, some accept everything without any filtering, while few of them question things.

Most of us do not know each other personally - this is a fact.  If you met some of the members, you might have loved them or avoided their company at any cost.  Some of us are very young, or others (like me) not so young.  basically, what I am trying to say is that due to the anonymous nature of that interaction, care must be taken even more to respect other fellows, and not doing internet bullying like people do when they feel safe to express their frustration behind their laptops.
Kris, what you say about forums is true, but there is another category of member that you didn't mention. There are the interlopers who stroll through a forum with no regard for conventions. Such members tend to generate strong antagonism in their wake and are usually not aware why. You keep saying you are curious about things and are happy to question them, and that is a good thing, as far as it goes. But the convention around here is that evidence trumps rumor and expertise trumps guessing, and whether or not you are aware of it, that is a convention that you repeatedly ignore. I am not an expert and I am not always right, but I can usually give the reasons why I think something is a certain way, and if you or someone else can show better reasons why it should be different, then I am happy (ish) to change my views.
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: mikep on February 15, 2018, 06:04:28 PM
What about the air gap. 

Enough with the perceived communication gap.
Title: Re: Hyperpro Front Springs air gap
Post by: peter73 on February 16, 2018, 07:19:08 AM
Hi Kris,

The correct gap for your exact springs is precisely 118 mm.

Best,
Peter